Is the Racial Imaginary Institute all people of color? How did this affect your collaboration?
Sara’o: I think we did not approach this as a color-by-numbers project, where we need people representing different walks of life or different racial groups. I think that we really put the work first but also kept in that conversation in mind.

There’s always more work to be done, and I think we can all stand with the show and look at it and see things that we would do better. But the exciting thing is that we were even able to do this. It was our first outing. I think we did a thoughtful job of trying to put together a group that had a lot of diversity. There are areas we could’ve grown in that, such as gender diversity, socioeconomic diversity, a diversity of mediums, racial diversity, and having more representation of Latinx artists. But we’re growing and we’re learning, and we try to make an effort to include as many voices as possible.

One of the primary goals listed on your website is to “change the standard of social meaning.” What role do you think institutions play in shaping the standard for social meaning?
Leronn: Institutions help shape the ways in which we understand ourselves. If you think about art institutions, they display the artwork that helps us put ourselves in a certain type of context. If institutions in the art world are historically displayed as white and male, then what lens does that give audiences that want to see themselves or don’t see themselves? As we move into the 21st century, can we afford to have institutions that have not challenged their practices in the ways in which whiteness is the normal standard, when we have an America that has become much more racially diverse? We have an America that is really in a moment of drastic change. Can we afford to still have institutions that practice a certain normalcy that actually works against the ways in which America, to be a better democracy, needs to move towards?

Sara’o: And is that normalcy white supremacy?

Leronn: If we can look at white supremacy and the ways that institutions practice it, then we can begin to pull apart the seams. We need to see the seams of white supremacy in the most normal spaces—which are also the most deadly, because they make us see whiteness as normal.

Sara’o: I would say that, art institutions, beyond just being predominantly white and male-dominated, they are extremely elitist and exclusive, and extraordinarily not compassionate and slow to react to where the culture is going. Like, basically kind of trash. [Laughs] There are very few art institutions and spaces that I actually feel comfortable navigating in. A lot of the reason I’ve had hesitation working in the art world was the fact that there’s such constant violence perpetrated by it. And the funny thing is that when you go into any art institution, you find that the people doing the work and putting on these shows are incredible people, and they’re actually hoping to work outside of a lot of those systems. So, it is really about activating those people.

We’re working with The Kitchen right now, and we could not say enough lovely things about these people. They are everything that I think most art institutions are not. The Kitchen is a nonprofit space that has done a really incredible job for about 25 years. They have led the charge of putting works by people of color, poor people, trans people, and queer people on pedestals. The show is really as much theirs as it is ours, so this is not a place that we’re critical of at all. But as we grow, it is very important that the Racial Imaginary Institute spreads into spaces where people aren’t having these conversations.

What does noticing whiteness mean to you? If whiteness is a habit, how do you break it? How do you think my generation will carry along this phenomenology of whiteness, if you think we will even carry it along at all?
Sara’o: Personally, the experience of putting on this show has showed me this will be the work that I am doing everyday for the rest of my life. I was raised by a woman who has taught whiteness studies for 30 years, my mom. I have always taught and talked about whiteness a lot, but the process of doing this show and being part of this group has generated in me a certain level of confidence at calling out whiteness when I see it in my workplace, in my friend circles. But, I don’t think whiteness will ever be undone. We’re not going to solve the problem, but I think it has been very exciting to see how many young people were at our opening.

Leronn: The biggest opening we’ve ever had.

Sara’o: This was the biggest opening in The Kitchen’s history and there were a lot of young people, teenagers, and that was extremely exciting because I am just constantly floored by the generation below me and what’s coming. I think there will be a rejection of a lot of things. The goal is that it won’t just be the Racial Imaginary Institute doing this work. We’re trying to talk to different institutions so that the conversation is not just going up, but it’s going laterally and down. Like, if a teenager comes to the show and is inspired by what they see, they should go put on an art show with their friends about whiteness and have a conversation at home about whiteness. That’s the goal.

Leronn: I don’t think the idea of “On Whiteness” is to center whiteness, but more or less to exhume it. A lot of people say, “Why would you want to have a show that centers around whiteness?” And it’s to decenter it, to make it visible, and to further explore what it actually means to be ourselves, with whiteness on the periphery of that. When I think of your generation, there is a way in which you guys are already centering your own experience. The way you guys are using the internet, I think there’s a level of education and language around whiteness, and yourself and who you are. Like the Solange album, and all the critical and creative ways your generation is really just owning itself and is saying what is really so unique about being a person of color. I think you guys are much smarter. [Laughs]

Sara’o: It’s a revolution, right?

Leronn: Yes. And so, I don’t think the question is whether whiteness is the center or not. I think we’re asking, what then do we do with white once it’s on the periphery? And, I think you guys are placing whiteness on the periphery already, but the thing is, we need to see it so that it doesn’t become more entrenched or re-entrenched.

Do you have any experiences to share as a person of color in the art industry? Something you’d like to tell young artists?
Leronn: I would say, whatever field you’re in, be a good citizen of that field. By good citizen, I mean: Help people, show up when you can, be as positive as you can. Good things come from it. And say your truth. Say your truth.

Sara’o: I would say something similar, but also for young artists to do what you’re doing and show where you’re at right now. Give people insight to things they’re uncomfortable to talk about. Aggravate systems. Get messy and try a lot of different things and don’t be afraid to call attention to the failures that are not working. It’s really scary to do, but when you start young, it’ll become a norm for you, and it’ll help break systems that are not working for our society. ♦