On “the danger of a single story” and why perfection is overrated:
NICOLA: That’s the problem. You know, “the danger of a single story.” We’re not allowed to have the myriad of human experiences. Especially in the media. In my life, I know a lot of black people and they are all wildly different. Because they are people! If you consume too much media, you’d think there’s only one way to be black.
ANIKA: Sometimes we put that on ourselves because we’re so underrepresented. I did a TV show last year and immediately somebody came out in opposition and said, “That’s not how we are.” It’s not always about the most positive portion of who we are, it’s not how you want it to be, because it is not perfect. We so often want to see ourselves as perfection, or you get to be a damn mess. But you don’t get to be all that stuff in between.
It’s really important that we are able to let go of needing to show something that is so perfect that it doesn’t seem a true or real thing. As much as we don’t want to see another gang-banging movie, I also don’t want to see another film where somebody is so highly accredited, and their family is so tight, and their mansion is so big, and the cars are so shiny that we don’t know who these people are because they don’t even have real issues. We stunt ourselves when we try to use perfection to negate the other stuff that is always shown.
JAMIA: Yes, it is a form of oppression to expect us to be perfect and hyper-vigilant all the time. After Election Day, which I now refer to as 11-9, I started writing an essay about how I gave up trying to be perfect. I’m done.
On critics, humor, and joyful defiance as resistance:
AMANDLA: I’m so glad to hear you say that. I’ve already received a lot of scrutiny for being a part of this project. From all kinds of different perspectives, and all kinds of different respectability politics. “Well if you’re going to create representation, then why do it with interracial relationships? You’re not creating good representation, it’s bad representation.”
[Laughter]
ANIKA: Meanwhile, it’s who you are.
STELLA: It’s how you came to be.
AMANDLA: It’s how I came to be. And meanwhile, we’re doing the work. I don’t understand this idea that you can do good work in a good way or a bad way. There’s so much love, and positive, and powerful intention behind this project. It feels so ridiculous to try and drag down what we do have.
JAMIA: I haven’t been on set with you all, but I have a sense of what it’s like to be in communities where there’s a lot of black women’s leadership. The relationship between you is a big reason I became interested in this film because I think a lot about community care, self-care, and activism. What have you learned about how we can show up for each other in the midst of critique, or when people want to dwell on single-story narratives because they are afraid of expansive depictions of blackness?
AMANDLA: On set, Stella and I would use humor as a tool.
STELLA: A shield!
ANIKA: A shield!
[Laughter]
AMANDLA: Yes, a shield! When we were faced with notes from the studio, or critiques where people weren’t understanding of something we wanted to be in the film. We would kind of laugh about it and be like, “Ooh, they don’t know, but its OK because they’re gonna know.” We kind of approached the whole thing with a humorous tone.
JAMIA: Like joyful defiance?
AMANDLA: Yeah, joyful defiance is important because if you take everything so seriously, you can’t do it.
ANIKA: Because then you’re “angry.”
AMANDLA: Yes, because then you’re “mad.”
STELLA: We really have to shed the respectability politics. I feel like as a comedic writer in my heart, in my last film, and what I tried to bring to this film, as someone who is in love with romance too—that’s [joy] not considered important.
ANIKA: Or, it’s important, but it’s not what’s considered important for us. It’s not where we’re allowed to function.
STELLA: We’re not allowed to be nuanced. I just went to the Kerry James Marshall exhibit and one thing that struck me is when I stood forever looking at this painting of Harriet Tubman where she was happy and in love. We never see that. I was dumbfounded…I just looked at her and thought I never got to see this woman “light.” She’s just strong. And her vision pushed our culture forward. But I looked at this picture of her and thought, This is why I make films, so black women can be seen as happy and whole, and not just struggling in the more bigger struggles of race and struggling to be human. Sometimes that’s not taken seriously.
AMANDLA: I think with black women, if we’re seen as joyous and happy, then we’re not seen as strong.
STELLA: We’re frivolous. We’re Love and Hip Hop.
AMANDLA: Exactly! Joy and tenderness—those are the most powerful qualities.
NICOLA: Powerful!
AMANDLA: I often get this question with press, where they say, “You’re very different from your character. You’re an activist, and you’re strong and powerful. Your character is happy.” As if those are two opposite qualities.
NICOLA: You’re filled with happiness!
JAMIA: I see you as a very joyful, free, black woman—just so you know.
AMANDLA: I am different than my character, but these are qualities that are very close to me. When I see those qualities, the tenderness, the sweetness, and the joy, I don’t see those as making her weak or small and real.
ANIKA: It’s also a really interesting thing where I find in this type of situation, that we will do something and then get a note from above…
AMANDLA: “Above…”
[Laughter]
ANIKA: About how that’s not the thing to do, or maybe not that, try something else, or make another choice. And they have no idea that it’s cultural. We’re still speaking the words but we’re still speaking and moving in and living in a space that is a cultural reality, and we are black women regardless. Even if we’re taking a role that’s not specifically written for us that has been given to us, you still have a black woman and there are things that are cultural that will connect beyond words on a page, and sometimes they don’t know…
JAMIA: It’s alchemy. Even what I’m feeling with you all energetically with all of you in this room and conversation right now…Something happens historically and culturally when black women come together, and to reduce that is to minimize something sacred. I’m glad you’re pushing back against that.
ANIKA: That I can turn to Amandla on set and just raise an eyebrow…and she’ll be like, “mmmhmmmm” and she’ll just turn right back around, is such a gift.
JAMIA: Yes! This is a gift. Thank you so much for a beautiful conversation. ♦
Everything, Everything comes to a theater near you on May 19.